Comments - Why are Churches of Christ Shrinking? - Part 1: A Left-Brained Fellowship in a Right-Brained World - Missional Outreach Network for the Missional Church2024-03-29T07:49:36Zhttp://missionalnetwork.ning.com/profiles/comment/feed?attachedTo=2422312%3ABlogPost%3A79277&xn_auth=noI would venture to say, almos…tag:missionalnetwork.ning.com,2017-08-04:2422312:Comment:1105682017-08-04T07:03:07.939ZEric Johnsonhttp://missionalnetwork.ning.com/profile/EricJohnson
I would venture to say, almost all of these churches that have the gimmicks of attraction and are growing are missing one very important thing. That is the true gospel plan of salvation which includes the practice of "baptism for the remission of sins." They're people will get baptized but for what reason? More than likely just for an outward commitment to Jesus. Preaching and practicing the proper plan of salvation is threatening and misunderstood as a work of man and considered Jesus plus…
I would venture to say, almost all of these churches that have the gimmicks of attraction and are growing are missing one very important thing. That is the true gospel plan of salvation which includes the practice of "baptism for the remission of sins." They're people will get baptized but for what reason? More than likely just for an outward commitment to Jesus. Preaching and practicing the proper plan of salvation is threatening and misunderstood as a work of man and considered Jesus plus something in liberal evangelistic style groups we are referring to. In the last 15 years we see many main line churches of Christ being apostisized into this false teaching just to keep people and money flowing to be able to afford the shiny glitzy arena. And what are they producing? Jesus believers and lovers but not disciples! It's all for naught, useless and not glorifying to God or growing the kingdom. Frankly I believe God allows this to know who are his. He favors the ones that maintain entering through the narrow gate less all the experience and feel goodness. For crying out loud, going to church is to worship and please God in spirit and truth how He requires. Not to have an experience pleasing us!<br />
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The problem is elders and preachers are not conveying correctly what God authorizes as proper worship. They forget maintaining true worshippers in smaller numbers is far more the will of God than succumbing to worldly types of worship. We need more fear of the Lord preached to our undisciplined self centered privileged young people. If they go away, so be it. The Lords church must remain true for the mainline churches of Christ connected to the first century congregations are as true as they come.<br />
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I am not a church of Christ Christian or a Cambellite. I am just a Christian... One last point to Jim Lovell:…tag:missionalnetwork.ning.com,2014-12-07:2422312:Comment:982542014-12-07T12:09:59.393ZDarryl Willishttp://missionalnetwork.ning.com/profile/DarrylWillis
<p>One last point to Jim Lovell:</p>
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<p>You state,</p>
<blockquote><p><span> The methods prescribed to reach the lost and keep them are unscriptural. What commands and examples do we have of people obeying the gospel in the New Testament. Bold and forceful preaching that made people understand their lost condition, from John the Baptist to Jesus to the Apostles the same message was preached. Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand, believe and be baptized for remission of sins. …</span></p>
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<p>One last point to Jim Lovell:</p>
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<p>You state,</p>
<blockquote><p><span> The methods prescribed to reach the lost and keep them are unscriptural. What commands and examples do we have of people obeying the gospel in the New Testament. Bold and forceful preaching that made people understand their lost condition, from John the Baptist to Jesus to the Apostles the same message was preached. Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand, believe and be baptized for remission of sins. Matthew 3:1-12, Luke 3:3, Acts 2:36-39; 9; 14.Look at the response to bold preaching of the gospel. Show me a response like that today with fluffy preaching and entertainment.</span></p>
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<p>The passages you mention have little to do with the methodology of evangelism and everything to do with the message. It is not "bold preaching" (method) that saves but the message that was proclaimed (Romans 1:16--not bold preaching, but the <em>message of the good news</em> is God's power for salvation...1 Corinthians 1:21--literally not "preaching" but the <em>message</em> preached). Again, even the bold preaching you mentioned was not done during a "worship assembly". It was more in line with street evangelism. So by your own count it would be unbiblical to have quiet evangelistic conversations in coffee shops because their is no example or command of anyone meeting in a Starbucks to evangelize.</p>
<p>Furthermore, there is no command, example or inference for church owned property, song books, announcements, projection of any kind for any event (e.g., Bible classes, seminars, retreats), sound systems--there is no <em>command, example, or inference </em>for speaking English, computers, use of videos outside of the assembly for evangelism, or meeting anywhere for taking the Lord's Supper other than in an upper room, etc.</p>
<p>There is an example for dialogical preaching (conversational where the audience interacts in the assembly). In fact, I think it may be only example we have of a Sunday morning assembly sermon in Acts.20:7--the word for "preach" in "Paul preached until midnight" is the Greek word not for lecture or "proclamation" but for dialogue (in fact it is where the English word "dialogue" comes from). But there is no example I know of in a worship assembly for a lecture-style sermon.</p>
<p>You are right, Christianity is never about self. It is about serving others. Philippians 2: "Do not look out after your own interests but after the interests of others..."</p>
<p></p> Jonathan Granger: I appreciat…tag:missionalnetwork.ning.com,2014-12-07:2422312:Comment:986592014-12-07T05:56:52.489ZDarryl Willishttp://missionalnetwork.ning.com/profile/DarrylWillis
<p>Jonathan Granger: I appreciate your perspective on this. And I especially agree with this statement you made:</p>
<blockquote><p><span>What may be surprising is some younger folks are actually seeking out traditional forms of worship and for good reason. They see the commercialization of the church, the highly scripted performances, and the sparse reading of scripture. This is what I love about the Church of Christ we attend – lot's of scripture gets covered each Sunday with little fanfare…</span></p>
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<p>Jonathan Granger: I appreciate your perspective on this. And I especially agree with this statement you made:</p>
<blockquote><p><span>What may be surprising is some younger folks are actually seeking out traditional forms of worship and for good reason. They see the commercialization of the church, the highly scripted performances, and the sparse reading of scripture. This is what I love about the Church of Christ we attend – lot's of scripture gets covered each Sunday with little fanfare or worldly marketing ploy.</span></p>
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<p><span>That is my observation, too. Except I see many are seeking out traditional forms by way of "high church" with very structured liturgy (a la Anglican, Orthodox, & Catholic). Some want to see "mystery" brought back to worship. They see an over-commercialization that seems to diminish our view of God. This is not a recommendation or condemnation: just an observation.</span></p>
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<p><span>I also agree that what makes more of an impact is the hospitality and relationships that are part of a church <em>community</em>. This is what people are looking for: all ages of people. They want authentic friendships and relationships. They want to know they matter to someone.<em><br/></em></span></p>
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<p><span>We have so focused on assembly as if this is the end-all-and-be-all of Christianity. One-three hours a week? This is what Jesus died for? Or did he die and resurrect to create a people who would participate in his rescue and reclamation of creation--to bring God's will to earth as it is in heaven?</span></p>
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<p><span>I am not suggesting that assembly is unimportant. It is important--but it is not the totality of Christianity. We must reclaim God's mission--which involves transformation into the image of Christ in our day-to-day lives. Some one recently said that obedience to God is not about fulfilling a legal obligation--but obedience is part of God's transformative work in our lives. Somehow our obedience to God is supposed to be part of the transformation process that He accomplishes in us. That involves much more than one-to-three hours a week.</span></p>
<p></p> Jim Lovell you said "granted…tag:missionalnetwork.ning.com,2014-12-07:2422312:Comment:985622014-12-07T02:51:59.283ZDarryl Willishttp://missionalnetwork.ning.com/profile/DarrylWillis
<p>Jim Lovell you said "<em>g</em><span><em>ranted young people, 18-35 year olds, need saving but nobody cares what they want.</em>"</span></p>
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<p><span>That is a very sad statement to read. It is also clear this is a major problem. Frankly it isn't just 18-35 year olds. Honestly, more 18-25 year olds tend to be more attracted to a "high church" format with ritual and mystery. It is my experience that those who want more of what James has mentioned are the baby boomers my age…</span></p>
<p>Jim Lovell you said "<em>g</em><span><em>ranted young people, 18-35 year olds, need saving but nobody cares what they want.</em>"</span></p>
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<p><span>That is a very sad statement to read. It is also clear this is a major problem. Frankly it isn't just 18-35 year olds. Honestly, more 18-25 year olds tend to be more attracted to a "high church" format with ritual and mystery. It is my experience that those who want more of what James has mentioned are the baby boomers my age (50s-mid-60s).</span></p>
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<p><span>How does "making preaching biblical" point 5 an "unbiblical method"? or "dimming the lights" we did that in churches of Christ in the 60s all of the time (I remember) when we prayed and took the Lord's Supper. How is power point different from carasol slide projectors, chalk boards, and large flannel boards some preachers were fond of using in the 60s & 70s? How does "emphasizing community" (in light of the first several chapters of the book of Acts) demonstrate and unbiblical method?</span></p>
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<p><span>Frankly, I think power point is overused. But it isn't any more anti-biblical than a building, a song book, or a flannel graph. There are no biblical examples or commands for most of what we do in assembly. In fact, what examples do we have of conversions happening during a worship assembly or even for the focus of an assembly to be primarily evangelism?</span></p>
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<p><span>Frankly I care what communicates with young people--and old people--and middle aged people. This is a matter of how do people communicate and learn. So it is essential for us to use all possible communication methods to connect. These are not matters of faith but matters of expediency.</span></p> This discussion is of great i…tag:missionalnetwork.ning.com,2014-12-05:2422312:Comment:984562014-12-05T15:54:41.298ZJonathan Grangerhttp://missionalnetwork.ning.com/profile/JonathanGranger
<p>This discussion is of great interest to me. My family and I have been attending a Church of Christ for the last year. I really like the acapella singing and can understand the old fashioned perception about the overall experience. I say experience, because regardless of whether a church uses cutting edge technology and dims the lights, or a traditional setup with bright lighting – both are designed to create an experience. The disagreement seems largely over what the experience should…</p>
<p>This discussion is of great interest to me. My family and I have been attending a Church of Christ for the last year. I really like the acapella singing and can understand the old fashioned perception about the overall experience. I say experience, because regardless of whether a church uses cutting edge technology and dims the lights, or a traditional setup with bright lighting – both are designed to create an experience. The disagreement seems largely over what the experience should be.</p>
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<p>Personally, I care very much what 18 – 35 year olds think. I care because they are going to be the one's making the decisions much sooner than we might want to accept. After all, we are talking about adults who should make up about a fifth of the church population! Unless there is direct biblical guidance to the contrary, we should communicate to young people in a language they understand and are receptive to.</p>
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<p>Yet, we should not focus on creating an experience at the expense of pleasing God, and certainly not one that is tailored to only one generation. The Bible is packed full of multi-generational worship and heritage, which has allowed prophesy to be passed down over many centuries. Only a bond between old and young (along with divine providence) allows this to happen. Whatever course is chosen it must not separate these two groups into separate worship. I know many churches are doing this today, but they might as well have two separate churches at this point (although one would be broke for sure!)</p>
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<p>What may be surprising is some younger folks are actually seeking out traditional forms of worship and for good reason. They see the commercialization of the church, the highly scripted performances, and the sparse reading of scripture. This is what I love about the Church of Christ we attend – lot's of scripture gets covered each Sunday with little fanfare or worldly marketing ploy.</p>
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<p>Truly, what I often enjoy is the fellowship after the service. People don't head for the doors like in so many churches, and the one thing that really sticks out is the number of people who will invite you over to their home for dinner. This cultivates real relationships, which as previously mentioned are what many people seek.</p>
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<p>I think there are larger issues at work within the Lord's church, and this is perhaps fitting for another discussion tailored beyond independent churches of Christ. This said, the things happening within the churches of Christ are of significant interest to me, because this is where I see people living close to the written Word. This is attractive and resonates with me - it's an experience unto itself.</p> Very dangerous article for fo…tag:missionalnetwork.ning.com,2014-05-29:2422312:Comment:962492014-05-29T16:47:44.918ZJim Lovellhttp://missionalnetwork.ning.com/profile/JimLovell
<p>Very dangerous article for four reasons:1) We cannot increase the size of the Lord's church. He will only add those that believe and are baptized. Acts 2:47. What does this mean? It is not within our power to change someones heart by what we offer in any type of "experience". But some will say we are suppose to share the gospel and be an example to bring the lost to Christ. Exactly! And we must look to the New Testament example for the pattern which leads to point number…</p>
<p>Very dangerous article for four reasons:1) We cannot increase the size of the Lord's church. He will only add those that believe and are baptized. Acts 2:47. What does this mean? It is not within our power to change someones heart by what we offer in any type of "experience". But some will say we are suppose to share the gospel and be an example to bring the lost to Christ. Exactly! And we must look to the New Testament example for the pattern which leads to point number two.</p>
<p>2) The methods prescribed to reach the lost and keep them are unscriptural. What commands and examples do we have of people obeying the gospel in the New Testament. Bold and forceful preaching that made people understand their lost condition, from John the Baptist to Jesus to the Apostles the same message was preached. Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand, believe and be baptized for remission of sins. Matthew 3:1-12, Luke 3:3, Acts 2:36-39; 9; 14.Look at the response to bold preaching of the gospel. Show me a response like that today with fluffy preaching and entertainment.</p>
<p>3) The focus is solely on young people. Granted young people, 18-35 year olds, need saving but nobody cares what they want. All I hear today is young people this and young people that. We have raise a generation of people who only care about themselves and what they want out of worship and everyone else, including our wise and knowledgeable elders, are ignored. This is called narcissism and it is the parents fault. Christianity is never about self and all about sacrificing for others and respecting our elders for their guidance. By the way I'm 38 so I'm stuck in the middle but see the dangerous road our young people are heading down.</p>
<p>4) Emphasis is placed upon an "experience" during worship. Since the young people is everyone's focus we try to give them what they want. They want lights, music, action and a theatrical experience because that is what moves them and makes them happy. Worship has nothing to do with pleasing us and everything to do with pleasing God, Exodus 29:18, Leviticus 1:9, 13, 17. Worship is about a worship that pleases God. If we worship how we are suppose to and God is pleased we cannot help but be edified and encouraged. If this is what it takes to save and preserve worshipers then what are we to do in areas or churches where these funds are not available our countries without electricity?</p>
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<p>I admire your efforts to bring people to Christ but I beg that you examine your Bible to determine what has always brought people to Christ and study history to see what has always brought people to Christ. The gospel is what saves and brings people to Christ. Goodies and flashy things may swell your numbers but they will not increase the size of the Lord's church. Take away the goodies and flashy electronics and they will leave just as the people left Jesus when he stopped feeding bread.</p>
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<p>There are many reasons we are in decline and I'll give you three reasons, lack of intolerance of sin, lack of self-sacrifice and lack of submission especially to elders. Obviously these reasons are deep and require much more space than I have. But the world hears us say we are different, but we don't look different, we don't talk different and participate in the same things the world participates in. The world sees a group of hypocrites and that is not attractive to anyone to join. The world needs to see a group of people that are different, a called out people, a holy nation of living sacrifices. If people, young or old, see that they will join if their heart is made of fertile soil. If not, they will reject God's word no matter what we do. </p>
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<p>Thank you for you times and I hope I have stimulated some good conversation as we both are concerned about the declining numbers in the Lord's church.</p>
<p></p> Excellent article with full o…tag:missionalnetwork.ning.com,2013-07-12:2422312:Comment:887732013-07-12T12:56:03.684ZJayaraj.Ehttp://missionalnetwork.ning.com/profile/JayarajE
<p>Excellent article with full of information and advises to be implemented in the Churches of Christ throughout the world ..</p>
<p>Thank you Brother</p>
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<p>Excellent article with full of information and advises to be implemented in the Churches of Christ throughout the world ..</p>
<p>Thank you Brother</p>
<div id="__tbSetup"></div> Well, this blog post is now n…tag:missionalnetwork.ning.com,2013-07-11:2422312:Comment:887162013-07-11T15:28:55.367ZJames Noredhttp://missionalnetwork.ning.com/profile/JamesNored
<p>Well, this blog post is now nearing 40,000 views. I have been encouraged that so many have said that they have used this post to generate discussion and thought about how to reach younger generations today. I hope that the other posts in this series are also looked at in these discussions, as this post is just one part of the puzzle.</p>
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<p>I am saddened over those who insist that any type of attempt to use current communication methods and address the "right brain/left brain"…</p>
<p>Well, this blog post is now nearing 40,000 views. I have been encouraged that so many have said that they have used this post to generate discussion and thought about how to reach younger generations today. I hope that the other posts in this series are also looked at in these discussions, as this post is just one part of the puzzle.</p>
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<p>I am saddened over those who insist that any type of attempt to use current communication methods and address the "right brain/left brain" disconnect in our fellowship is "entertainment." That is a loaded word, implying meaningless, mindless dribble. That is hardly what I advocate, as one can read above. Powerfully telling God's story in a holistic, current way that speaks to both the head and the heart is what I hope to see us do more of.</p>
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<p>Thanks for sharing your thoughts! Let's keep the dialogue open.</p> James--we agree on that! 8^)…tag:missionalnetwork.ning.com,2013-04-26:2422312:Comment:853152013-04-26T04:35:06.574ZDarryl Willishttp://missionalnetwork.ning.com/profile/DarrylWillis
James--we agree on that! 8^)<br />
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Using text on slides (and especially charts with tons of data) is certainly counter-productive and horribly ineffective. But that misuse of power point isn't what I am speaking of.<br />
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Even those of us who utilize image based slides and avoid text based slides have rarely heard anyone suggest we need more slides rather than less. In fact, I have been working harder to use less slides and integrate more interaction. Communispond, a professional presentation…
James--we agree on that! 8^)<br />
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Using text on slides (and especially charts with tons of data) is certainly counter-productive and horribly ineffective. But that misuse of power point isn't what I am speaking of.<br />
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Even those of us who utilize image based slides and avoid text based slides have rarely heard anyone suggest we need more slides rather than less. In fact, I have been working harder to use less slides and integrate more interaction. Communispond, a professional presentation organization has been advancing this for years.<br />
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Power point or video or technology tend to be over used in every aspect of our lives (education, sales, workplace reports). We become overloaded. The overuse of technology makes it less effective. I say this as someone who uses quite a bit of technology including social media as a communication tool. But as we are seeing it is a poor substitute for relationships. This is why I believe relationship is the overlooked element when speaking of church growth. It isn't the flavor of your assembly--it is the integration of a human being with a community he or she knows loves and cares about him or her.<br />
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I don't think you are suggesting that technology is more important than relationships, so I hope I'm not giving the impression that I think you do. I'm just suggesting again that church growth has much less to do with power point and video and technology than we might think. Many people misuse Powerpoint…tag:missionalnetwork.ning.com,2013-04-26:2422312:Comment:851482013-04-26T04:10:07.427ZJames Noredhttp://missionalnetwork.ning.com/profile/JamesNored
<p>Many people misuse Powerpoint. It should primarily be image based, not text based.</p>
<p>Many people misuse Powerpoint. It should primarily be image based, not text based.</p>