No one cares about your church

[James Nored]

I was asking a young woman in Starbucks the other day where she went to church. Her name is Katie.

Katie said that she had started going to a church. She had only been only been going one time, but she liked how the minister was interactive and applied to lesson to real life.

 

Her co-worker asked her, you don't know which church it was or it's name?

 

She said, "Does it matter?"

 

Three things struck me about this conversation. First, though she had only gone once, this young woman said that she "going to this church." Church "attendance" is at an all time low, particularly with younger people.

 

Second, this girl could care less about the church's denomination. Denominational loyalty is also at an all time low, including my own fellowship ("Church of Christ"). If we think that we can make denominational appeals to younger people and that they will care, think again. They care about Jesus, social justice issues, mission, practical daily living, that type of thing.

 

Third, we have no conception of just how low the appeal of "going to church" is today amongst most younger people. It takes a burning, passionate, Christ-centered church that meets people where they are to reach them. And even then, they may be perfectly content to worship once in a blue moon and feel that they are a part of that church.

 

What trends do you see in church "attendance" and church loyalty amongst younger generations?

[James Nored]

Mark, you say "it is not easy shifting from a spectator meeting to a missional one." Are you equating participation in a meeting with being missional?

[James Nored]

Bruce, good analogy with the health club. And very indicative of the fact that many people view "church" as one of many extra-curricular activities that they "go to."

[Timothy Tien]

Terry, I can see that you have been studying New Testament polity.  I think you have conducted your exegesis well.  We have taken "pastor" (greek "poimen", translated everywhere else in the NT as "shepherd") and attributed our figurehead/CEO/consumerist idolatry to that title.  Seminaries are rotten on this subject, by ducking it, because they want to avoid offending varied traditions and denominational differences that would compromise the flow of students, tuition, and benefactors they currently enjoy.  So they teach hermeneutics, but fail to apply what they teach to church leadership structure.  I've read a bit of Hirsch, I like him a lot; I think of him as "the emergent guy who really believes scripture has authority'.  Elders/overseers/shepherds (presbuteros/episkipos/poimen) are conflated in the beginning of 1 Peter 5.  Ephesians 4 does allude to shepherds working in context and concert with apostles, prophets, evangelists, and teachers.  We have lost much of our way on this.  Pastors actually prefer the figurehead treatment because it is easier to amplify influence and control when it is given to them--why make their lives harder than they already are.  I appreciate your prophetic word on this issue.

 

James, I agree that synagogue is not in our Bible.  But remember that, prior to the centralization of worship at the Temple at Jerusalem, Levites were not apportioned a tribal province, but were apportioned towns and farms among all the other tribes' lands.  And their priestly and levitical responsibilities are delineated with some detail, to be carried out in their distributed locations.  I realize that there was some rotational duties at the Tabernacle/Temple, but that was not the only place their Sabbath and Holy Day observances were located.  So while I concede that synagogue is an anachronism, I was trying to compare how the church is perceived today to the NT church, to prompt us to see how the first believers transcended some of the cultural constraints I thought your post suggested.

[Bruce Bates]

It's kind of like health clubs, even if you only go twice a year you refer it to as "my gym."  Perhaps like other people in our Rolodex, even if we don't know their name we still attach some personalization to it (my doctor, my lawyer, my insurance agent, my barber, etc.)  I've heard people who come once a year refer to our church as "my church."  This has always staggered me, but when I think of those other comparisons, I see how they get there.  I also think it reflects consumer mentality instead of Lordship mentality.  You can sincerely enjoy it, but its still at your beck and call -- not the other way around.  So go and as often or as little as you want.  Now we know our culture has taught us all consumer mentality, but how have we as church leaders been co-conspirators in this?  I think I have been guilty of this from time to time.

[James Nored]

Ha, ha. No. First, I'm not called a pastor, but a minister or evangelist, and indeed, seek to bring a missional and evangelistic thrust to all that I do. We have elders who serve in a pastoral role. Second, there is a biblical basis for supporting people who preach and teach as I and others do. 

[James Nored]

Terry, the reason 99% of churches are led by "pastors" is because there is a tendency for a church to become safe places that sooth and "feed" members. Alan Hirsch makes the point that the church is dominated by the Pastor, Teacher giftings, and marginalizes the apostolic/missional, prophetic, and evangelistic giftings because they disrupt the status quo. I think that he is dead on on this.

This does not make paying someone for preaching and teaching, or for missionary support, as we find in the NT is wrong.

[James Nored]

Terry, I agree that a pastoral/teaching gift is not the only gifting. Apostolic/missional, prophetic, and evangelistic gifts are part of this leadership mix. 

 

On pay, what do you think of 1 Timothy 5:17-18?  ¹⁷ The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. ¹⁸ For Scripture says, “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain,”^[a] and “The worker deserves his wages.”^[b]

 

Based upon this Scripture, surely we cannot say that paying those whose work is preaching and teaching is wrong, can we?

[James Nored]

Terry, pastors are talked about in Eph. 4:11 and in other places in the NT. What do you think that a biblical role of pastors would be? What would not be a biblical role of pastors?

[James Nored]

Thanks, Tim, for your comments. The Diaspora/synagogue model is an interesting comparison. The synagogue is not mentioned in the OT law. Some in our fellowship would say that there was no Scriptural warrant for it, if they were consistent in their hermeneutic. However, Jesus participated in the synagogues, as did Paul and the other apostles. Clearly, they endorsed it.

 

The synagogue allowed for decentralized "worship" (from what we can tell, this consisted of prayer, Scripture reading, and commentary), but worship nonetheless. I get your point that they weren't going to the temple for this. I wonder what would be a parallel to this "synagogue worship" today.

[James Nored]

Terry, I get the potential problems associated with the "going to church" mentality. Yes, we are the church, and we should not think of the church as a place. On the other hand, if you mean by "go to church" going to where the church is assembled, then this could be a correct usage. As to the "Sunday service . . .  not being found on the pages of Scripture," there are passages which speak of assembling on the first day of the week. I'm not for a "spectator service," as you say, though listening while someone is speaking is not wrong. I don't see how a Sunday service "robs people of their own unique identity." Just because a lot of people are in a room, that does not mean I am no longer a unique person with a unique identity. Can you explain this further?

 

Still, the emphasis in the NT is definitely on "walking daily with Jesus," as you put it. And I like your question, "Tell me about how Jesus is working in your life?" I could follow up this question with, "What kind of kingdom community of believers" are you a part of? Most unchurched people would say, huh? Though the term church holds a lot of baggage, it is still the language that most people use to refer to a body of believers.